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Talk:William Henry ap Rice (1522-1588)
Contributor's line My line Picks up 1630 with John Rice/Anne Hackley and continues to this day. There are 40 some living descendants of John Rice1630 Son of Perratt II born 1565 & raised in the household of Sir John PERRROTT 1528, and Sybil Johns of Waterford, Ir. Since writing this piece I have discoverd a confirming story that my Father Told me about Perrott ap Rice 1598. He was reported as dead to the visitng census for Nobility around 1640, and indeed there are no further legal actions brought against hims as his death at age 41-42 was unexpected.....Except the he had debts of 640 lbs.(Think $1,500/lb Sterling) that were unsecured....and My father said "Perrott ap Rice left Wales to escape his legal financial troubles" At the same time his grandson, named John Rice accompanied the Father, Perratt II 1565 to the New World to begin life again....under the new name John PERROTT. Thus John Perratt was father to both the boy, born May 1630, and Perrott ap Rice/Rhys, & is not coincidental....Draw your own conclusions....Im not allowed to assert what clearly happend here. Five current living members of the family have very striking bone structure of The Valois/Tudors/ Stewarts of Scotland as do My Father and Grandfather.....Genetic Test is in Hand, and awaiting the Confirmation of all the Above investigaion. And yes, I was a police investigator for 11 years. Before retiring to S. California. Date is October 11, 2013 DNA test are back, I and all my male ancestors prior are part of Haplogroup is I-1. Developed as part of the Giant Clade of F and occured about 40,000 years back, so a very ancient people predating Wm. the Conquorer by more than three thousand years....Meaning that these peaople are from the beaker culture & Picts who were the first settlers in England after the great glacial Ice melted and forced them out of the lowlands. They were transitional people who made pottery with a rope system coiled atop each prior layer rather than a potters wheel. The Family of Sir Rhys ap Thomas 1449 is the Branch which stretches back to the earliest days of habitation in England. The DNA results show a common ancestor with William the Conquorer about 4000 years earlier or 3,000 BCE. Since we have the most rare of haplogroups for S. Wales and O+ blood type and show signs of posterior positioning of the Foramen Magnum the line is ancient indeed....(O+ being the universal blood donor). They connect to the later arrivers of Wm. the Conquorer and established the Plantagenet line of Kings through their daughters but the male line continues to Sir Rhys ap Thomas to David ap Rhys 1500 to John ap Rice 1540 to Thomas ap Rhys 1570 Married Tacinda Tudor descendent, Margaret Mercer 1580 to their son & grandson Perrott ap Rhys and John Rice 1630 of East Anglia. Perrott ap Rice 1598 emigrated to America about 1640 and changed his name to John Perrott (possibly the Quaker) and Perratt II 1565 took the name of John Rice (Hughes) and began trading with local indigenous indians on the James River in Virginia and Died there about 1658. His companion was a Native American female called Necotowanasee, so local tribes left them to their trade without harrassment deep in indian territory. DNA exact match show we connect to Wm. Davis 1650 a descendent of Rice/Hughes. The family moved from DEDHAM Ma to Connecticut then onto New YORK where my 4th great grandfather was born. John Rice to Samuel RICE to Samuel RICE to Edward RICE to Wm. RICE Sr. to Wm. RICE JR to to ANDREW RICE my grand father and finally to Samuel G. RICE my father of the 7 Nebraska RIces. My Grandfather Andrew Rice of Pultney County, New York was married 3 times, lastly to Clara Elizabeth Marsh, and had 4 living heirs with her....There are at least 6 other living heirs from this first of 13 generations back and David ap Rhys/Rice....thus thousands of people have been born of this direct line to Sir Rhys ap Thomas 1449 which blends with the NON- Royal Tudor lines with The Warrior ap Thomas. Further, we now know that the line is from Sir Robert Dudley, but raised in the household of Sir John Perrott 1527 & Syble Johns, one John Perratt II born 1565 was admitted to Grey's Inn 1580 along with 1/2 sibling Sir James Perrott and is likely the person who became known as John Rice Hughes of Virginia. After a years worth of investigation I am certain that my father's testimony in 1978 is correct. The Father of JOHN RICE 1630 is JOhn Perratt II aka John Rice Hughes, and Perrott ap Rice 1598 became known as John Rice "The Quaker". He was saved and converted by George Fox in Virgina about 1648. That decendency line has now been established by finding his children born in Barbados who married into the Mayo and STEAGER famlies among my ancestors. This update August 30, 2014 represents the latest invesigation tentative conclusions. There is no paper trail, thus the DNA signature is being followed 500 years after the fact. Dale C. Rice 1948 ; slightly edited -- Robin Patterson (Talk) 12:41, March 30, 2013 (UTC) Debate about the Rhys Ap Thomas/Katherine Howard liaison :The following essay, by the same author as the above (and partly repeating what has been said elsewhere on this wiki), was added to the "William Rice" page but seems much more appropriate on this specific page: The Name William Rice 1522 is the name given to a Non-existant male Heir of Katherine Howard, allegedly born to Katherine Howard and Sir Griffeth ap Rhys ap Thomas' son Gruffed. William had a sister named Mary Rice 1530 but she was likely only in the household of Katherine and Griffeth ap Gruffed 1508- 1531, she was not born to Katherine. These two people, William and Mary born 1521/22 and 1530 respectively, were LIKELY, fostered out to Gruffed and Katherine who were 1/2nd cousins to Dafidd Rice and Beatrice Rice of Carew. Katherine married 16 year old Griffeth ap Gruffed ap Rice 1508 in 1524 when she herself was only 14....Thus William Born 1521, would make Katherine 11 years old...3 years prior to her arranged marriage with young Gruffith son of Gruffed ap Rhys ap Thomas. The Children of Daffid/Beatrice are the likely children in Katherine Howard's care when the Royal Head counts were being made. Katherine Howard is the Fostering Mother, Which explains why so many sites believed them to be Katherine's children....SHE WAS not the Blood Mother of Both Children. The common ancestor to Dafidd and Griffith is Sir Rhys ap Thomas 1449 knighted for bravery and service at the Battle of Bosworth. Dafidd and Gruffed are 2nd 1/2 cousins by virture of two different mothers or wives of Sir Rhys ap Thomas in succeeding generations. (He had 9 families and 9 women, two of which were wives) and a dozen or so children. The link in this family drama is Beatrice Rice who's mother may be Helen married to knight William Gardiner....Helen was the illegitimate daughter of Jasper Tudor Uncle to Henry VII and great Uncle to Henry VIII and 3rd cousin to Sir Rhys ap Thomas. Beatrice, THE LAUNDRESS, was seen @ the field of the Cloth of Gold 1520 and the child born the following March 1521 was Little Henry (named after the father)....notice the name is not Daffid. This child was in the household of Katherine and Gruffed 1508-1531 BUT, was born 3 years before Gruffed married Katherine in 1524 and was assumed to be their son....Burks peerage does not show either William /Henry or Mary as listed in the will of Katherine Howard, later lady Bridgwater. Thus Little "HENRY" was known as William in the Rice household. William (Henry) was granted a Coat of Arms May 2, 1555 by Queen Mary because she knew of and paid for his education and clothing expenses up to 1538. Beatrice served Princess Mary 1520 up until & after she was crowned Queen until 1558. The coat of arms the Queen approved for William/Henry has the Grandmother's symbol of the Pommegranite of Katherine of Castile uppon it....Not the 3 raven's of Rhys ap Thomas Family Crest. Draw your own conclusions... Perrott Rice & son John 1624-30 son of Thomas ap Rice has Haplogroup I-1, NOT WELSH descent but descent from Wm. The Conquorer through the Tudor LIne...( SEE Edward III grandson of French KING Phillip IV of Normandy). Those DNA vlaues are 12 14 15 16 segments in the DNA Y chromosome on the last 4 of 25 sites compared, and Haplogroup. The Relationship of the Laundress son to Henry was likely kept quiet and out of sight, as a low born birth by a Tudor King who put to death more than 30,000 opponents or competeing family members, was not a careless matter. For whatever her reasons, Beatrice stayed loyal to Princess Mary Tudor for 38 years and did not press her son's possible positon as the Kings Son. Elizabeth I was in no mood for contenders to the throne as she will prove by putting to death, her Catholic Cousin Mary Queen of Scots in 1587... Williiam 1521 was arrested by Elizabeth I for conducting Mass, but was let go, he retired from court thereafter, and stayed out of sight/mind to protect his life as the Rice's had been faithful Catholics and ANTI -BOLYEN, and were ostracized by the Protestant's ruling around Elizabeth at the time. The Tudor Blood line went to America in 1640 in the person of John RICE 1624-30 where he met and Married Anne Hackley, cousins to the Famous Edmund Rice of Sudburry who was likely a COUSIN. The conclusion of the 1937 inquiry into the book 'By the name of RICE" was correct in the statement that the Rice's were not Royal on the Father's side (meaning Sir Rhys ap THomas) is Correct in TITLE: But Henry William 1521 in name a Rice/Tudor Looks to be very ROYAL Blood by Birth of Beatrice, aka Eden ap RICE TUDOR/Gardiner/Rice and Henry VIII King of ENGLAND. The Rhys ap Thomas line had no Royal designation because their lineage was 700 years older than The Tudor's claim to the throne of ENGLAND, kept deliberately out of Contention for the Throne by Henry VII and Henry VIII. Indeed it was Griffith's unhappy lot to be executed by Henry VIII on Tower Hill Jan 4, 1531. :There is probably still much debate about the above matters. As User:Thurstan has pointed out, there was a spirited conversation at http://genforum.genealogy.com/rice/messages/4270.html and related pages in 2000, under the heading "Re: Rhys Ap Thomas/Katherine Howard, NOT!". -- Robin Patterson (Talk) 04:44, April 10, 2013 (UTC) Here is the indicator of possible Royal Blood connection by John Perratt II to John Rice 1624 His Y Chromosome alleles measured on 25 sites: Top line is the estimated Henry Tudor Values on Y chromosome. John Rice 1624 is in the Middle Edmund 1594 Bloodline of is on the Bottom. *** Shorter segments on the allele site = OLDER or more Primary DNA THUS John 1624 carries the Oldest DNA sequence on all but one site when compared to the others.( NOTE, some alleles can revert to shorter in mutation, but generally a mutation is an added segment or two averageing one about every 100 years) Edmund Rice Association ruled that Edmund is not John Rice's Father, leaving only John Rice1630 Born to Perrott ap Rice's daughter Margaret Rice, by Perratt II, 1572. There is conflict over this assertion, but the testimony of my father, Samuel G. RICE in 1978 has been found to be supported by Historical facts. Thus the grand son of Catherine Perrott 1584 and John Rice II of Rickerson, Descendent son of Sir Rhys ap Thomas and his 2nd wife Gwillian f Gwillim is connected by marriage to Sir Rhys ap Thomas and by Blood to The illegitimate son of Sir John Perrott 1527 in my NON-Professional opinion. D.C. RICE 1948 William OWEN Tudor: 13 22 15 10 13 14 11 14 11 28 14 8 9 8 11 24 16 20 30 12 16 16 16 16 13 22 14 10 13 14 11 14 11 28 15 8 9 8 11 24 16 20 28 _ 14 15 16 /? 13 23 14 10 14 14 11 14 11 28 15 8 9 8 11 23 16 18 28 12 14 15 16 /? Stewart Line of Scotland aka as B3240 is last 13 23 14 10 13 11 11 12 11 28 16 8 9 8 11 24 16 20 28 12 14 15 16 17 Edmund 1594 may not be John Rice's Father but likely shared a common ancestor within 200 years. Part of the confusion is that Thomas Henry Rice 1558 May be Edmund Rice's Father but Henry Thomas Rice 1555 was the one ruled out by DNA test. The Possibility of two different fathers has to be assumed. In Any Event John Rice 1624-30 & Ann Hackly of Dedham, Ma. may be the Blood -Tudor in America according to my reading of the Above Allele's and there were Hundreds if not thousands of descendants steming from this legitimate Puritan union. Various investigations show Father of Sir John Perrott 1527 was HenryVIII and Mary Berkley Pughe. The King's dalliance with a Laundress is recorded in the birth, we believe, of Wm RICE 1522 and his mothers has been named as Eden Rice. The kings 3rd cousin by Jasper Tudor, Via Helen Tudor/Gardiner....One BEATRICE ap Rice ©1475 wife of Daffid Rice 1475 was a Lavendar to Princess Mary Tudor. At least she is my candidate as her last name is still unPROVED. author/investigator: Dale C. Rice 1948 Palm Springs Ca The Barbara Rice Fulde Married to William Rice is actually Barbara Flude, not FULLER. They had no issue. They are erronously mentioned on various sites as being in service to Queen Mary and this is correct...However, Barbara Rice / FLUDE was the Daughter of Grifin Rice c 1525 son of Katherine Howard and Griffeth Fitzurien, Executed Tower Hill 1531. They left their estate to a Nephew William Rice of Carew Castle. William Rice and His sister, Mary Rice -Jenkins, were raised in the Household of Princess Mary Tudor by virtue of his mother Beatrice - Rice and Daffid Rice Groom to the Princess, Thus Barbara left their estate to her 4th cousin William Rice, It is possible that Henry William and sister Mary were fostered out to the 3 rd cousin Griffeth 1508/Katherine Howard-Rice and that is the source of confusion of the birth status of Both Mary and Henry William....They were in the household during the Peerage Head counts, but Burks Peerage does not list them as children of Katherine Howard. D.C. RICE investigator. For those of you who are rightly skeptical I direct you to Google: Churchbook of St. Mary the Virgin, Tenby. On that site you will see the very large and impressive carved monument raised by Thomas Rice, the Son of John Rice II and Catherine Perrott of Scottsborogh, commemorating the life of Margaret Mercer Rice, Thomas's Wife of some 12 years who bore him seven children who lived....Thomas is depeicted as well as the children and all the FAMILY Coats of ARMS including Sir Rhys ap Thomas, Daffid ap Rice & Alswyn Martin, BAteman, Ayalla, Berkley, deVere, Roche and MECER are shown in color on the CREST above and on the monument. The PossibleSon and HEIR of HEnry Tudor VIII is the long sought, but Missing Heir of the English Monarchy never known before is William ap Rice 1521 and his wife, Barbara Fulde who aparantly died childless....Dale C. Rice1948 of the NEbraska Rice's. Pasgen ap Urien is the the Father of Rhys ap Thomas Family - the 3 raven's of Rhys ap Thomas Family